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GB 249 SOHC 4 · Coleção · Original recordings, 1998-2000

27 interviews with sufferers from asbestos-related disease and/or members of their families. Sound recordings and transcripts (17), transcript only (10), or sound only (1). Also questionnaires.

Anonymity was assured to all project participants. Only Owen and Margaret Lilley (SOHC 4/14) opted out.

One recording had been mistakenly aggregated with this oral history project but was found not to relate to asbestos. As a result , there is no interview with the reference number SOHC 4/12.

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Coal miners and dust-related disease oral history project
GB 249 SOHC 6 · Coleção · Original recordings, 2002, 2004-2005

Oral history project "Coal miners and dust-related disease" aimed to reconstruct the story of the human tragedy of coal miners' respiratory disease. It sought to "write the history of 'black spit' from its early discovery by Scottish physicians in the 19th century, through to the official recognition of coal workers' pneumoconiosis in 1942 and on to the campaigns to recognise bronchitis and emphysima as industrial diseases in the second half of the twentieth century that culminated in the landmark legal judgement in January 1998".

Of a reported number of 52 interviews undertaken, 27 survive as sound recording and transcript (14) or transcript only (13).

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Conversation with Jim Scullion
GB 249 SOHC 11 · Dossiê/Processo · 9 February 1999

Unidentified female interviewer in conversation with sports illustrator and social worker Jim Scullion of Coatbridge. The interview focuses on football, particularly the interviewee's support for Celtic Football Club.

  • sound recording (0h 52m 48s)

Side A

[00:00:14] Introductions.
[00:00:47] Describes going to first football match; tells story of sneaking into Cliftonhill ground and being chased by police.
[00:02.21] Talks about who he went to games with.
[00:03:12] Talks about different areas of Celtic Park from which he watched games.
[00:03:47] Describes how he began to support Celtic as a child.
[00:05:03] Talks about family members’ support for Celtic.
[00:06:10] Talks about how he supported Celtic because his male relatives did; describes attending his first Celtic game; tells story of not realising it had started as there was no radio commentary by David Francey.
[00:07:18] Talks about how he now attends games with his children.
[00:07:26] Talks about female family members’ attitudes to football.
[00:08:12] Talks about whether it is acceptable for women to attend matches; describes bad language and behaviour at matches; remarks that he did not notice females attending when he was young, but saw families once he moved into the stand.
[00:10:29] Talks about facilities for men and women at football grounds in 1980s and 1990s.
[00:11:44] Talks about Celtic Football Club’s importance to him.
[00:12:38] Talks about the players’ importance to him.
[00:13:47] Describes his admiration for player Danny McGrain; mentions Kenny Dalglish and Billy McNeill.
[00:14:31] Talks about whether today’s players deserve high salaries.
[00:15:39] Mentions he is not a member of a supporters’ club.
[00:15:44] Describes when and why he became a season ticket holder.
[00:17:21] Talks about annual cost (season tickets, strips, videos) for himself and sons to support Celtic.
[00:18:04] Describes attitude to this cost.
[00:19:35] Talks about why he is not a Celtic shareholder.
[00:20:50] Describes pre- and post-match rituals when he was a child; tells story of arriving after kick-off because father and brother spent too long in pub; mentions getting Times and Citizen with pictures of players inside and being lifted over turnstile.
[00:22:34] Describes pre- and post-match rituals for himself and sons now; mentions difficulty of parking and exiting car park after matches.
[00:23:43] Talks about food eaten on match day.
[00:24:10] Talks about clothing worn to games; describes tradition of not entering ground until he sees someone he knows, otherwise team will lose.
[00:25:17] Talks about putting off family events to attend football and tells story of pregnant wife accompanying him to game when two weeks overdue.
[00:26:44] Describes atmosphere of Celtic Park when he was a child; mentions merchandise sold outside, including pictures of President Kennedy and (player) Johnny Thomson; describes supporters’ singing before, during and after match.
[00:27:50] Describes how atmosphere differs now; mentions that singing used to be deafening every week.
[00:29:37] Talks about routine of coming into ground with sons.
[00:29:51] Talks about team huddle being most special moment of the game, and final whistle the most hated moment.
[00:30:39] Detailed description of attending Celtic v. Albion Rovers at Cliftonhill, just after Celtic won European Cup in 1967; tells story of getting Lisbon Lions’ autographs and meeting Jock Stein and Jimmy Johnstone.
[00:33:39] Talks about how importance of supporting Celtic has increased for him over time.
[00:33:56] Talks about whether his support for Celtic causes arguments with friends, family and strangers.
[00:34:47] Describes how attending football with sons has enhanced his relationship with them.
[00:35:54] Describes attitude to fellow Celtic supporters; mentions his annoyance at abuse given to Rangers player, Dave McPherson.
[00:37:12] Remarks that he has friends who are Rangers supporters or ex-Rangers players.
[00:37:52] Talks about Celtic’s 1967 European Cup win; describes family events on that day, watching game on television and celebrations afterwards.
[00:40:03] Talks about Celtic’s 1979 league win on last day of season.
[00:40:38] Talks about Celtic’s 1985 league win at last game of season against St Mirren.
[00:41:37] Talks about winning domestic double in Celtic’s centenary year and mentions Roy Aitken.
[00:42:29] Talks about importance of winning 1997-1998 league cup and championship and preventing Rangers from winning 10 league championships in a row.
[00:43:41] Talks about a game in November 1998 when Celtic beat Rangers 5-1; mentions another game where Celtic beat Rangers 7-1.
[00:46:31] Talks about what he sees as Celtic’s greatest achievement.
[00:46:46] Recording ends.

Side B

[00:03:59] Interview resumes. Talks about it not really mattering if Celtic win or lose and how Albion Rovers fans are probably better football supporters.
[00:04:37] Describes his inability to support another club, even if Celtic were relegated.
[00:05:39] Sums up what Celtic means to him.
[00:06:15] Interview ends.

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Conversations with workers at the former Linwood car plant
GB 249 SOHC 1 · Coleção · Original recordings, 1981-1985

A series of interviews with former employees at the motor manufacturing complex at Linwood, Renfrewshire, 20km west of Glasgow, Scotland.

Manufacturing activity first started at Linwood during WWII, under the government's shadow factory scheme, specialising in steel processing and gun barrels, managed by the Glasgow engineering company Beardmore's. After the war, the Pressed Steel company began to manufacture railway carriages, tractors, and body parts for cars and trucks. In the early 1960s, after government pressure, the Rootes car group built a new factory at the site, commencing the full-scale production of new motor-car models, including the Hillman Imp and the Avenger, massively expanding the Linwood site. The Linwood site was taken over by the American Chrysler corporation in 1967, and was again taken over by the French company Peugeot-Citroen in 1979. Following a prolonged period of financial difficulties and industrial unrest, the Linwood plant was closed by Peugeot in 1981. During its operation, Linwood was the only full-scale motor-car production facility in Scotland, employing 8,500 workers at its peak, one of the largest single manufacturing sites in Scotland. The former factory has now been demolished.

This project was a research project undertaken by Clifford Lockyer, an economist based at the University of Strathclyde, in the early 1980s. Lockyer had previously worked at the Linwood car factory, and in his own words, "sought to record the life of the Linwood factory from shadow war factory to closure".

The interviews cover the life-span of the entire plant, including a few workers who worked at the site during WWII. The evolving nature of the site, describing the varied work of the 1950s, is featured, including the production of car parts for Vauxhall, Ford, Rolls Royce, as well as the production of railway carriages, mostly for export, with India a main destination. The most significant development at the plant - the sudden move into full-scale car production in the early 1960s, and the resulting dramatic transformation of the site - is also strongly represented in the material (this expansion is often referred to in the material as a difference between the "south site" and the "north site"). Finally, the tumultuous years of the 1970s are also featured, including the events leading up to the plant's closure in 1981. Interviews cover a wide range of jobs roles at the plant, including operators, foremen, management, and trade union officials. A key division of labour at the site was between those operators in the "tool shops", and those who worked on the car assembly line "track", and both sets of workers are represented.

The overall flow of the interviews centres around the topic of industrial relations, which was Lockyer's specialist research area. Management policies, and their effects, as well as the changes in ownership are discussed by many interviewees. Management relationships with the shopfloor are frequently mentioned. Trade union activity at the plant is heavily featured in the interviews, and some interviewees describe their roles as shop stewards. Various industrial disputes and their consequences are also relayed in detail, including the trajectory toward plant closure. A large number of different trade unions operated at Linwood, and some workers describe the interrelationships and tensions between them, as well as the organisational structures and main personalities of each union group. Many workers also discuss their own attitudes and interactions with trade unions.

The Linwood plant was largely non-unionised in the 1950s, which some workers discuss, including its impact on working life. A strike in 1948, which led to the banishment of unions, is touched upon by a few interviewees. The unionisation process of the late 1950s, resulting in the comprehensive unionisation of the entire workforce, is featured in the material, including the impact on working conditions and management relations.

The working conditions of the workplace and the everyday routines of a car factory are highlighted. Interviewees discuss their own daily routines and the organisation of their particular work section. Some interviews go into detail about payment arrangements, including the "piece" system, and bonuses. The introduction of a nightshift in the 1960s is also mentioned. Health and safety risks are very occasionally alluded to. Workers discuss their own attitudes towards their job, their frustrations and motivations, and how this changes over time. The interviews feature discussion on day-to-day problems and difficulties at the site, commenting on production and design problems, as well as quality control.

Since many interviewees worked at the Linwood plant for many years, interviewees often comment on the rise and fall of the Linwood plant over time, making allusions to the wider economic and business climate. Interviewees chart the dynamics of changing workforce morale, changing work practices and changing management attitudes over time, and try to pinpoint "where it all went wrong", reflecting on reasons for the gradual demise of the Linwood plant and the motor industry in Scotland.

Finally, a handful of interviews feature the topic of women in the Linwood workforce. Women were typically employed in a few roles at the site, but changes to this configuration are also mentioned. One interviewee discusses how many women labourers were employed at the site during WWII, undertaking roles vacated by men. Another interview discusses how - in the late 1970s - women were employed in significant numbers in jobs which previously were exclusively performed by men, including on the car assembly line "track". At least one interviewee is a former female worker, who reflects on the lack of union representation among female workers.

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Publication about Scottish Women's Oral History Project
GB 249 SOHC 20 · Dossiê/Processo · c. 2004

The Scottish Women's Oral History Project was undertaken in Stirling, Scotland, between 1987 and 1990. The aim of the project was to record the lives of women in Scotland in the first half of the 20th century, including a specific objective to record the experiences of working-class women.

The project was established in December 1986 by the Women’s Committee of Stirling District Council. The impetus for the project was part of a wider promotion of women's interests, as well as a need to address a perceived lack of women's voices in the historical record. Sponsored by the Manpower Services Commission (MSC), the project set out to record the personal testimonies of local women living in the Stirlingshire area of Scotland about their life in the decades before the Second World War. Based in Spittal Street, Stirling, the project was coordinated by Jayne Stephenson, who, with a team of fellow interviewers, interviewed around 80 local women, between 1987 and 1990.

The testimonies cover all aspects of women’s experiences, from childhood to adulthood, through to the Second World War. The interviews are loosely structured into sections covering childhood, leisure, work, marriage, children, community and social class (the interview questions are based on the model questionnaire devised by Paul Thompson (1978)). The project explicitly aimed to cover a representative sample of female occupations, and the material contains recollections of a wide variety of occupational experience - including textile workers, waitresses and hotel staff, domestic servants, factory workers, teachers, nurses.

The publication contains written transcripts of 77 interviews (anonymised), together with an index and an introduction by Callum Brown.

Temporally, the material relates to women born in Scotland between 1894 and 1926, and the interviews cover the period up to World War II.

Geographically, the material covers the Stirlingshire and 'central belt' area of lowland Scotland, including extensive material on life in Glasgow and Edinburgh.

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GB 249 SOHC 8 · Coleção · Original recordings, 2005

Conversations between Neil Rafeek and two men who spent their working lives as laggers in the Clydeside heavy industries. Topics covered include childhood and growing up in Glasgow, the Clydebank blitz, housing, domestic life, social life, football, sectarianism, gang culture, National Service, working conditions, trade unions, health and safety, asbestos.

Includes notes and draft publications relating to a project about the working culture and notions of masculinity in Clydeside heavy industries.

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Voices from the Yard oral history project
GB 249 SOHC 46 · Coleção · September - November 1989

Oral history project conducted in 1989 by Glasgow Museums with eight former workers in the Clydeside shipbuilding industry. The project documents, from the workers' own perspectives, life in Glasgow's shipbuilding industry in the 1930s and 1940s, and includes their recollections of the Great Depression in the 1930s.

Based along the river Clyde in the west of Scotland, the Glasgow shipbuilding industry grew dramatically in the late 19th century, becoming one of the world's major centres of shipbuilding construction, employing tens of thousands of people in a host of different firms, constructing ocean liners, steamships and battleships, for export around the world. At the turn of the 20th century, Glasgow was responsible for a large proportion of the world's ship production. After suffering a severe downturn during the Great Depression in the 1930s, the Glasgow shipbuilding industry went into terminal decline in the post-war decades, and by the 1990s was at a fraction of its former capacity.

The interviewees held the following occupations within the shipbuilding industry:

  • shipwright/boilermaker
  • 2 x shipyard blacksmith
  • 2 x shipwright
  • caulker
  • ship's plumber
  • marine engineer
    In addition, one of the interviewees (Pat McChrystal) describes in detail a myriad of other roles, and the overall process of ship construction.

The interviews reference a range of shipbuilding companies on the Clyde, including Fairfields, Alexander Stephen & Sons, and Harland & Wolff. As most interviewees spent most of their working lives in the industry, interviews chart the career trajectories of workers, often involving changes of role and employer, including time spent in the broader industrial marine ecology of the Clyde, such as the merchant navy and ship repairers. Comments are also made on wages, hours of work, the hierarchy within jobs, and differences in skilled/semi-skilled labour.

Most of the interviewees started their working lives in the 1930s and 1940s in the shipyards. Although the interviewees talk about their working lives across the decades, most of the specific detail focuses on their experiences in the yards in the 1930s and 1940s. The impact of the Great Depression of the 1930s is a notable feature of the material, and this period's effect on the shipbuilding industry on the Clyde is described. In particular, the interviewees outline the personal impact of the collapse in shipbuilding, describing the impact of periods of prolonged unemployment. The development of cycling and hostelling around Scotland as a popular leisure activity for unemployed men in the 1930s is also featured.

One interview is with Andy McMahon, a former shipbuilder, who was also the Labour Party Member of Parliament (MP) for Govan, between 1979 and 1983. Leaving school at 14, McMahon became an apprentice in the Fairfield shipyard in the early 1930s and later became a trade union shop steward. McMahon describes his periods of unemployment during the depression of the 1930s, and details his emerging political consciousness in the shipyards in this period, which included membership of the Communist Party and being blacklisted for political activism.

The interviews cover the entrance of the worker into the shipbuilding industry, which was typically on leaving school, aged 14 or 15. The interviewees discuss parental attitudes towards employment, as well as the influence of fathers - who typically were also employed in the shipyards - in securing work. All entrants to the shipyards underwent a 5 year apprenticeship, leading to a skilled trade, and this apprenticeship period is heavily described in the material, including entrance examinations, rival gang fights, an apprentice strike in the 1930s, and the impact of the Great Depression.

The interviews also document everyday experiences in the workplace environment. There is material on interviewees' day-to-day routines, detailing the challenges and tasks required by specific roles within the shipbuilding process, often going into detail regarding specific industrial techniques, typically involving skilled manual labour. Interviews also cover the various tools and equipment used to perform specific roles, and comment is often made on the provision and availability of tools. Interviewees frequently discuss how they were expected to make their own tools. The impact of new technology in the shipbuilding industry is also touched upon.

The interviews also provide details of the working conditions in the shipyards. Interviewees often describe the conditions of the shipyards which they encountered on leaving school and starting work there. Frequent comment is made on the physical conditions of life in the shipyards (noise levels, extreme heat, working outdoors in winter etc), the provision of specialist equipment (or lack of), and the various strategies adopted to ameliorate demanding conditions. The sheer physical demands of the work is often commented on, and the provision of on-site facilities (eg. canteens, toilets) - or lack of - is also outlined. Interviews also cover the health and safety procedures (or lack of) in the shipyards, describing workplace accidents, workplace risks to injury, and exposure to hazardous substances, including asbestos.

The interviews also document industrial relations within the shipyards. Interviewees discuss their relationships with management, the distinct dress codes of different groups, and management attitudes towards workers. Interviewees also outline their relationships with foremen, who were responsible for day-to-day oversight of ship workers, described by one interviewee as "very powerful". Discussion also takes place on workplace discipline, and penalties for infringements. Interviews also feature material on the development of trade union activity in the shipyards, as well as the campaigns for improved wages and conditions in the 1930s. Workers also discuss their myriad grievances in relation to their working conditions: no teabreaks, low wages, no pension, no holiday pay, lack of tools, "hire and fire" culture. Some interviewees also reference Catholic/Protestant relations in the shipyards, detailing practices of discrimination and sectarian attitudes.

Some of the interviews feature life in the shipyards during WWII. Interviewees discuss the "boom time" of the industry, the changing focus towards warships and merchant fleet, and the new influx of people into shipbuilding. In particular, comment is made on the arrival of women workers in the shipyards during WWII, undertaking traditionally male roles.

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GB 249 SOHC 37 · Coleção · 2017 - 2019

Oral history project carried out by Jois Stansfield for MSc Health History at University of Strathclyde.

This is believed to be the first oral history of speech and language therapy in the UK. Early members of the speech and language therapy profession were recruited from retirement networks and via the professional body, the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. Interviews were held across England and Scotland, taking a life-story approach with each participant. Personal testimony, previously unheard, from these pioneers of the profession demonstrates the degree to which these women were products of their age, class and gender and the individual ways in which they negotiated challenges in their personal and professional lives.

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GB 249 SOHC 30 · Coleção · 2014 - 2015

Oral history project, conducted in 2014-2015 by Nigel Ingham of the Open University on behalf of the Greater Manchester Asbestos Victims Support Group, interviewing members of the Group.

There were 7 interviews in total and the collection comprises audio recordings, full transcripts, summaries and photographs for all interviews.

The interviewees comprise 5 women, widowed through mesothelioma (an asbestos-related disease), and 2 men who at the time were current sufferers. Of the 5 widows, 3 had been bereaved for up to 10 years, while two others lost their respective loved ones in the previous 12 months.

The interviews cover life story details, the social and economic context in which asbestos exposure occurred, the patient journey with mesothelioma, as well as the individual, emotional, family and social impact of the disease. Heavy industries such as textile mills, power stations are featured in the material, as well as shops, schools, and other 'lighter' contexts. The trades of those exposed to asbestos include electrical engineering, painting and decorating, joinery, shopfitting, bricklaying and tiling.

Geographically, the material predominantly covers Lancashire and Greater Manchester, but also references London.

Temporally, the material covers the decades following World War II up to approximately 2015.

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GB 249 GW · Coleção · 2003 - 2004

Recordings and full transcripts of 6 interviews conducted with Wyllie by freelance oral history interviewer Jenny Simmons between 10 December 2003 and 15 March 2004. The interviews follow a 'life story' format, covering Wyllie's family background, childhood, education, work, leisure and later life.

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'Doctor's orders' oral history project
GB 249 SOHC 64 · Coleção · 2017 - 2019

Thirty interviews conducted by Stuart Bradwel as part of the Wellcome Trust-funded PhD studentship at the University of Strathclyde ‘Doctors Orders’ – Type 1 Diabetes and the Consultative Relationship, 1965-2002.

Whereas early physicians approached Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus (T1DM) in the paternalistic fashion common to mid-twentieth century practice and expected strict obedience to prescribed treatment, in 2002 the Dose Adjustment for Normal Eating (DAFNE) programme was initiated. This reconceptualised the professional as a remote source of support while encouraging those with T1DM to take an active role in determining the character of treatment, adjusting their own dosages of insulin and dietary intake as necessary on a day-to-day basis. Consequently, the traditionally passive ‘patient’ was transformed into a legitimately meaningful actor with the power to refine therapy according to their own subjective values and priorities.

The project investigated the nature of this transition from physician- to patient-led care in orthodox T1DM management, making particular reference to a process of ideological evolution within the medical profession in light of growing evidence that an empowered patient-body led to superior clinical outcomes. There is little printed evidence concerning the lay-experience of T1DM, while professional volumes tend to be heavily editorialised. Consequently, oral history – from both those with T1DM and professionals – was identified as a promising methodological framework with considerable potential to produce valuable evidence. A total of thirty interviews (19 with people living with type 1 diabetes, 7 with healthcare professionals, and 4 with professionals with the condition) were conducted between 5th May 2017 and 3rd July 2019.

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GB 249 SOHC 38 · Coleção · 2019

Ongoing oral history project being carried out by Stellar Quines, a Scottish theatre company.

In the autumn of 2019, Stellar Quines created and toured 'Fibres', a play by Frances Poet about the impact of the shipyards and asbestos on a Glasgow family. It was inspired by a true story and mirrored hundreds of similar stories in Glasgow and the rest of the UK. In addition to producing the play, the company collaborated with Clydeside Action on Asbestos, one of Glasgow’s primary support services for those impacted by asbestos, to undertake an oral history project to gather some of those Glasgow stories .

The interviewer is Rosie Priest, Creative Learning Associate, Stellar Quines.

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Conversation with David McLetchie MSP
GB 249 SOHC 19 · Dossiê/Processo · 28 May 2013

Recording of David Walker, of the Scottish Oral History Centre, in conversation with David McLetchie MSP in 2013. The interview was conducted at David McLetchie's office at the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh.

This interview was originally intended to be the first of a series of interviews carried out by the Scottish Oral History Centre with the first cohort of MSPs. However, due to David McLetchie's poor health, this interview was undertaken ahead of the planned project. Conducted about two months before his death from cancer at the age of 61, this interview is one of the last interviews which McLetchie gave. Because of time pressures, the interview is approximately 25 mins in length. The larger project with the rest of the cohort of MSPs was never undertaken.

The interview covers McLetchie's entire life, orientated primarily towards his life in politics.

The interview covers the following topics:

  • Family background
  • School education
  • Political involvement at Edinburgh University
  • Career in law
  • Conservative Party involvement, including Young Conservatives, and party conferences
  • Standing for election as an MP in 1979
  • Selection process for becoming an MSP in 1999
  • Becoming leader of the Scottish Conservative Party in 1999
  • Running the Conservative 1999 election campaign for the Scottish Parliament
  • Life as a constituency MSP and as a 'list' MSP
  • View on 'consensus' politics of the Scottish Parliament
  • Press coverage of the Scottish Parliament
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Singer strike, 1911
GB 249 SOHC 2 · Coleção · Original recordings, 1988

Conversations between members of Glasgow Labour History Workshop and former Singer employees, discussing working conditions and the strike at the Singer sewing machine plant in Clydebank, Scotland, March / April 1911.

Clydeside industrialists began to introduce scientific management practices in 1910. The Singer sewing machine plant in Clydebank became the site of the first explicit confrontation between capital and labour in Scotland resulting from the ensuing reorganisation of work processes. Within two days of twelve female cabinet polishers going on strike, the Singer works became paralysed as the majority of the 11,000 workforce joined in.

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Glasgow dock workers oral history project
GB 249 SOHC 18 · Coleção · 2009

Oral history project, conducted in 2009 by David Walker of the Scottish Oral History Centre at the University of Strathclyde on behalf of Glasgow Museums, interviewing those who had earned their living working at Glasgow’s docks. A total of 17 men were selected as suitable for the project but in the end only 12 participated, with some becoming ill and others unavailable for interview. Although a smaller cohort was used than originally intended it did provide a representative sample of workers with experience of most of the docks that operated along the Upper Clyde at Glasgow and its environs. The group also had experience of many of the jobs undertaken such as electrician, plan maker and superintendent stevedore, plater, winch operator, checker, and crane driver. One additional respondent was interviewed who had never worked at the docks but had lived at Shiels Farm and had witnessed the opening of the still operational King George V dock in 1931. The average age of those interviewed was 72 with birth dates ranging from 1926 to 1947. All of the interviews were conducted at the respondent’s home with one exception which was conducted at the Scottish Oral History Centre.

The interviews were semi-structured in style which allowed the respondents to talk beyond their working lives. Hence the testimonies provide evidence of the daily work and conditions in which their working lives were undertaken but they also touch on other aspects of their lives, including family relationships, early job opportunities and trade union activities. The respondents were not only generous in donating their memories but also in providing photographic images which help illustrate the people interviewed, the types of ships that they worked on, buildings now demolished, and tasks undertaken such as handling large steel slabs, grain, coal or scrap iron. Although each interview was conducted separately there was some overlap in the recollections mainly due to the fact that many of the men knew each other as workmates and inevitably they were exposed to similar events in their careers.

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